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Copper and cheese

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mhill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Copper and cheese
    Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:43pm
Mr. Cage: Thanks for the tip!!

mike hillerbrand
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MrCage View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrCage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:43pm
Mike,

You are right down the road from the South East Dairy Reseach Center in Raleigh.

Mary-Anne Drake does a lot of work on cheese/dairy flavors. She works with cheese manufacture as well. I would recommend her as a resource as well.

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/food_science/sdfrc/sdfrc.html

Click around this link and you will find her contact information.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
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mhill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:42pm
Thank you Michael, I will contact Professor Zeppa directly. Any other input from Forum members would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Mike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote michael Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:42pm
Mike
Professor Zeppa visits the forum every few weeks. I suggest you Email him at the address on his cheese and wine articles, on the site if you need a fast response. Giuseppe Zeppa has direct experience of using copper vessels in cheese making and is very experienced in sensory evaluation. There is a debate regarding whether copper is really required and there are arguments for and against. Against is probably too strong. Copper does affect microbial growth; enzyme activity etc and can have positive effects re cheese flavour but can also cause problems. It is an interesting topic. While the copper can ‘destroy’ certain nutrients you may be aware that there is also a view that in certain situations extra copper is desirable in the diet. Hope the project works out for you and I look forward to seeing some pictures of your plant!
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mhill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:42pm
Thank you gzeppa:

Your post was very helpful.

Do you know if the copper vessels are still being manufactured today? If so, do you have any suggestions on how I might look for a firm that produces them (or where I might find drawings/plans)?

Regards, Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gzeppa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:42pm
Dear Mike H, copper vessels are actually largely used in Italy for production of Grana Padano PDO and Parmigiano PDO cheeses. In fact in rules of these cheeses is reported that production can be performed only with these vessels. The copper could to go in the milk and curd and its activity is essential for cheese characteristics.
Copper vessel are also largely used for production of traditional cheeses in Alps mountains by farm producers. Also in this case copper attivity is essential for aroma of produced cheeses.
Then copper vessels are used essentially for cheeses with an high ripening time (60 days for mountain cheeses, 8 month for Grana, 12 month for Parmigiano, up to 10 years for Bitto PDO cheese).
With fresh cheeses copper it is not essential then can be used stainless steel vessels without problems.
Regards
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mhill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:41pm
My apologies: "Mr Cage".
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mhill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:41pm
Thank you Mr. Morgan and Michael for your very kind welcomes.

Based on your replies, would it be safe to assume that copper vessels were likely used in centuries past more for their metallurgic properties than any substantive affect on cheese quality? Could one also conclude that there would likely be little advantage in using a copper or copper-lined vessel in the production of farm type Gouda?

I am looking forward to reading the referenced paper on the topic.

Regards, Mike Hillerbrand.
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michael View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote michael Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:41pm
Yes, you are very welcome to the forum! Copper when added to milk promotes a range of oxidation reactions, one of which reduces the concentration of ascorbic acid. High levels of copper addition can easily be detected by the appearance of a bitter, metallic flavour. Since copper addition promotes oxidative rancidity it is not normally added to milk nor used in contact vessels. It can also be argued that its addition results in detrimental effects on certain nutrients e.g. ascorbic acid.

Copper vessels are used in the manufacture of some Swiss cheese varieties. While the addition of a few parts per million of copper to cheese milk will slightly raise the oxidation-reduction potential of the cheese, there seems to be no negative effects on flavour and arguably there may be flavour advantages. The high reducing conditions in ‘normal’ starter-made cheese appear to ‘neutralise’ the oxidative effects of the copper. There is a fair volume of literature on this subject e.g. the paper by Maurer et al. (1975) is interesting. This is available as a free download from J. Dairy Sci at
http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/58/5/645.pdf .
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MrCage View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrCage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:40pm
Mike H,

Welcome to the board. I have to dust off the memory bank but if you are interested in a bit of an experiment; start with 2 paper cartons of milk. Put a clean copper penny in one of the cartons and do nothing to the other carton. Leave at room temperature for 6-8 hours. Flavor the milks; the copper penny will promote oxidative rancidity of milk fat. I was involved in collegiate dairy products judging and this technique was used to "create" milk samples.

I do recall that copper is used in vats for Parmesan / Gruyere as this reaction promotes pleasant flavor compounds as the cheese matures.(not sure of the actual reactions involved).

Hope this helps a bit
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mhill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2010 at 9:40pm
I have noticed that many of the older European cheesemaking vessels are either solid copper or copper lined. It seems that in the US copper has been largely abandoned for stainless steel. I recently read some references, though not specific, to chemical reactions between milk and copper that contribute to cheese quality. Beyond the even-heating attributes of copper, I would very greatly appreciate any general and/or specific information on both the scientific and practical benefits of copper as it relates to cheesemaking. Regards, Mike Hillerbrand, Cary, NC USA.
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