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Gelato Mouthfeel problem

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adams_austin View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 May 2015 at 4:24am
Hi Mr. Mike,

Please help me out here.

I am facing a big issue of loss in mouth-feel of Gelato flavors after shifting to a new Gelato base. Earlier I used to use

- 700 ml Fresh Milk (6% FAT)
- 140 gms Sugar
- 12 gms Skimmed Milk Powder (26% protein)
- 17 gms Dextrose Monohydrate
- 100 gms Fresh Cream (25% FAT)
- 34 gms MEC3's Panna Base (as a stabilizer).

However, because of unavailability of Panna base, I wanted to make a similar recipe for base and after many trials, it boiled down to the following:

- 700 ml Fresh Milk (6% FAT)
- 125 gms Sugar
- 45 gms Skimmed Milk Powder (26% protein)
- 30 gms Dextrose Monohydrate
- 125 gms Fresh Cream (25% FAT)
- 4 gms Local Stabilizer.


However,using the new base, there is a big loss in flavor's mouth-feel and I keep wondering what may be the reason for such a loss. Please advice me ways to increase mouth-feel of Gelato flavors.


Looking forward to your valuable suggestion.

Regards,
Austin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 7:36pm
Austin
 
Please accept my apologies for missing your post. Because of the large amount of SPAM that the forum has been receiving all posts must be approved prior to them going live. There was so much SPAM that I missed your post.
 
This has now been remedied and I will respond to your query shortly.
 
Michael Mullan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 7:53pm
I am not familiar with MEC's Panna base. However I am familiar with Panna-type bases developed by other companies. They normally contain stabilisers, emulsifiers and glucose solids (glucose syrup solids not dextrose or glucose). This combination of glucose solids usually around DE 40 or thereabouts with carefully chosen emulsifiers/stabilisers contributes significant body and desirable mouth feel.
 
The extra skim milk powder and additional dextrose will depress the freezing point of your gelato and it will appear softer than before.
 
I can provide you with a better recipe. PM me if you want to discuss. You could also buy an alternative Panna product from Mr Williams who is one of the authors on this site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 6:33am
Hi mate,

Thanks for your reply. 


Currently, I am using a recipe, which gives me the below mentioned texture.


My current recipe:

Milk - 1 litre (FAT-4.5%, SNF- 8.5%)
Sugar - 125 gms
SMP - 65 gms
Dextrose - 70 gms
Fresh Cream - 160 gms (25% FAT)
Maltodextrin - 50 gms
Emusifier - 3 gms
Tapioca Powder - 2 gms
Corn Starch - 3 gms



Current Texture using my receipe
   Current Texture of Gelato




However, my target texture of Gelato is shown below.





Do let me know what changes should I make in my recipe to get the desired texture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 10:45pm
Austin

Thanks for your post. When I get a little time, probably this Wednesday am, I will break down your mix to fat, MSNF etc and post results.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2017 at 2:39am
Thanks a lot admin. Eagerly waiting for your reply.

Note : Fresh Cream used contains 25% FAT and SNF 6.8%
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:48pm
Hi 

I have done a quick analysis of your mix. I have not had time to double check my calculations but will do when I get time.

The attached image shows my analysis of your mix.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 7:58pm
This is a low fat mix, around 6%. It has a low PAC value which means that at normal  freezer temperatures it will be hard to scoop. It is not particularly sweet either (POD value). If the MSNF is too high (lets ignore lactose sandiness issues since with modern stabilisers these rarely occur today) the excess protein interferes with fat agglomeration and creates a range of issues. Your MSNF is too high.

Someone has formulated this mix for economy purposes and has probably used maltodextrin and tapioca as fat replacers to give a richer taste.

Try reducing the MSNF by 1% and increasing the POD and PAC values. Look at the articles on the website to get you started. Ensure that you get the discharge temperature out of your freezer as low as you can and try and get air into your mix.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 8:51pm
Hi Mike,

Thanks a lot for your help. Your feedback will be very useful to proceed ahead. I have a few queries on your feedback.

1) What is the optimum POD and PAC according to you for low fat mix of around 6%?
2) Can you help me find the two award winning recipes in the free resources?
3) While Calculating POD & PAC for Fresh & SMP, what kind & percentage of sugar have you taken into consideration?


Thanks a lot for your feedback so far.
A

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 9:10pm
1. The PAC value depends on the serving temperature e.g. you need a different value for -12C compared with -18C. Using PAC values you can work out the approximate % of frozen water in ice cream. This needs to be adjusted so that the ice cream or gelato is not too hard at the serving temperature.

2. the two prize winning recipes you refer to require a subscription to the On Line calculator at https://www.dairyscience.info/calculator1/index.php .

3. There are two articles on the website that deal with this area! See the menu under ice cream. See https://www.dairyscience.info/index.php/ice-cream/220-ice-cream-sweetness.html and https://www.dairyscience.info/index.php/ice-cream/228-ice-cream-hardness.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 9:13pm
Moreover,

I am not very sure about the sweetness of my sugar, dextrose and Maltodextrin used. In order to check their exact sweetness or POD, can I use a refractometer (already in possession)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 9:24pm
There is no scientific method for measuring sweetness. There are accepted reference values for sugars. These are compared against sucrose, table sugar.

The sweetness of maltodextrin depends on its DE value. This can vary and is available from the manufacturer.

Please read the articles before posting again!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 9:27pm
Thanks a lot Sir for the useful information. 

Much appreciated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 9:45pm
Thank you for your feedback. Regretfully I do not often have the time to respond to a query in this way.

Please let us know how things go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 6:36am
Hi Mike,

Thanks for all the help so far in improving my Gelato recipe. I went through your recipes and tried to make some changes and at the end came to this recipe:

Milk (4.5% FAT) - 1003 gms
Fresh Cream (25% FAT) - 160 gms
Sugar - 115 gms
Dextrose Monohydrate - 80 gms
Maltodextrin - 50 gms
SMP - 50 gms
Corn Powder - 1.5 gms
Pregel Neutro Base - 5 gms
CarboxyMethylChloride - 1 gm
Emulsifier - 3 gms


    Water (g) Fat (g) Sugar (g) Solids (g) MSNF POD PAC
Milk (4.5% fat) 1003 872.61 45.135 0 130.39 85.255 7.38 46.14
Cream (25% fat) 160 109.12 40 0 50.88 10.88 0.82 5.12
Sugar 115 0 0 115 115   115 115
Dextrose 80 0 0 64 80   44.8 152
SMP 50 0 0 26 50 48.5 4.1 25.5
Corn+Neutro 6.5 0 0 0.00 6.5      
Maltodextrin 50 0 0 10.00 50   10 10
CMC 1 0 0 0.20 1      
Emulsifier 3 0 0 0.00 3      
Total (g) 1468.5 981.73 85.135 215.20 486.77 144.64 182.08 353.76
Percentage--->   66.9 5.8 14.65 33.1 9.85 12.4 24.09


Lactose 0.16 1
Dextrose 0.7 1.9
Maltodextrin 0.2 0.2
Sucrose 1 1


According to my calculations, my MSNF is around 9.85%, POD is 12.4% and PAC value is 24.09. However, the problem with this recipe is that the creaminess of my Gelato has reduced considerably and it has become a bit heavier in nature.


My serving temperature is -15 degrees.

I would be grateful if you may suggest ways to pump in more air in my Gelato and let me know if my recipe and calculations need any more tinkering to make gelato lighter and more creamier.


Thank you for your help so far and awaiting your reply.

A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amine57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 9:56pm
Hello everyone. First id like to introduce my self. I am Amine from Morocco. I went through your receipts and I notice the following .the level of sugar is low that's why your gelato will be hard even at -15c°. In your place I will be around 17% for the whitebase and depanding on the flavour I am preparing I will balance my final flavour with 2 element sugar for fatty paste and cream for sugar paste. I think this will help if I well got your question. Good luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 5:14pm
Hi Austin,

Looks about right but 2 things.

Are you heating your mix to 160 F and keeping it there for at least 15 minutes?

What emulsifier are you using?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 5:53pm
Hi,

I use Lecithin as an emulsifier (2 gm per kg mix). Yes, I wait for 15-20 minutes after pastuerizing milk to 80 degrees C and before ageing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adams_austin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 5:55pm
Hi Amine57,

Thank you for your reply. I will try increasing sugar to 17% of mix and see how the result is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Admin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 10:48pm
Lecithin is not the best emulsifier for promoting fat agglomeration and stabilising air bubbles.  I did recommend you to read the articles on hardness and sweetness. The POD and PAC values of your original mix need to change. Mix was not sweet enough and the  resulting product would have been quite hard.

You have not mentioned your overrun.
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